我一直没什么概念----蔡锦访谈

　　2007年9月12日下午

　　酒厂艺术园

　　朱其：你这个芭蕉叶的形象是什么时间开始画的？

　　蔡锦：好像是91年。

　　朱其：是出国以前吗？

　　蔡锦：对，出国前。

　　朱其：我看你当时还写了一些笔记，描写你自己当时的情绪。

　　蔡锦：是的。

　　朱其：是在北京画的吗？

　　蔡锦：在天津美术学院。

　　朱其：那时候好像北京还是有很多前卫艺术什么的。很多人也在做很多前卫的东西。那时候你为什么会想到画实物的东西，这也不是特别受大家推崇的潮流，现在也不是，但是你坚持了那么多年，包括你到国外以后，也没有太大的变化，这你当时是怎么想的？

　　蔡锦：当时就是有个形象让你去画的感觉。但是画了这么久以后，自己的感觉是在这里面有一种需要，也许我画别的，也是一样的。有一种无限的感觉在里面，但实际上没有什么特别的意思。就是让自己画画的感觉一直在持续。

　　朱其：植物非常多，芭蕉叶的形象哪些特征吸引你呢？

　　蔡锦：我回忆起来，当初第一眼看到就是一下被吸引住了，像一种皮肤茎脉似的，最早就是那样，也没有具体的再去深刻的研究分析，就是一瞬间的感觉。拍了这张照片一年以后突然想起来就拿出来画了。

　　朱其：你表现的色调还是非常主观化，很多色调像血一样的鲜红，非常浓烈非常的迷离，这种主观化意味着什么？

　　蔡锦：这个可能就是在调色盘里下意识的不知道怎么就用了红色的，像你说的颜色的感觉，就是视觉上，就是一种绘画的感觉。

　　朱其：画面色调跟你的生活经历或者情绪有更直接的联系。你的画面会让人联想到你的个人体验，大多数人还是愿意看一些美丽的画，你把它描绘得非常……里面包含着痛苦、迷茫什么，这跟你的生活有联系吗？

　　蔡锦：我那个时候才二十几岁，那时候我生活很单纯。在我画美人蕉最初十年的生活里面，我觉得还是比较美好的。个人生活和感情方面都很单纯，也没有经历过特别大的事情，都是很平淡的。但别人看到我的画会有那样的感觉，我也觉得挺奇怪的，那段时间的生活就像个学生一样，除了画画就是画画。我自己也不知道，为什么画出给人的感觉好像有很多的生活经历。

　　朱其：可能给人的感觉你是一个比较直觉型的艺术家，并不是按照很自觉的想法去画画的，你的色调在不同的时期有变化，比如早期可能会纯一点，到九十年代后期，那些鞋子、自行车坐垫上的红色变得发污，这个变化有什么原因吗？

　　蔡锦：我觉得这也是一些很自然的因素，比如说鞋子、床垫上画出来颜色比较发污的感觉，但实际上是跟画面的材质有关，像这些我都是没有进行材料加工，所以丝绸布面没有刷胶的情况下就很吸油，颜色看上去就比较发污。

　　朱其：一开始没有想过这个？

　　蔡锦：没有，比如说在丝绸上面是没有刷胶，后来画上去发现吸油了，但我觉得很好，就一直这样画了。

　　朱其：最近对灰色的选择会主动一点吗？

　　蔡锦：最近用黑灰色是因为有一个朋友她说她喜欢我以前画过的灰色的美人蕉，我就画了一张，但这种黑灰色的感觉又来了，所以就画了这么多张。

　　朱其：你现在的新画中，芭蕉叶很少，出现的都是茎和杆，有一种烧焦的感觉。

　　蔡锦：也是顺着感觉，现在让我觉得不想用太多的颜色，还有就是不想画太多的东西。也许以后还会想画颜色很漂亮的感觉，什么时候想画再画，但是最近我觉得不画太多也挺好的，整个空空的。

　　朱其：你是哪一年出国的？

　　蔡锦：97年。

　　朱其：这十年在欧美也看了很多艺术，但是对你好像没有太大的影响，很多艺术家到了欧美以后他们的艺术形式和题材都会有变化，但是你好像没有。

　　蔡锦：对，可能是我画画有一种惰性，看到别人的画也有喜欢的，但是回到我自己的画里面，就好象跟我没有关系了。

　　朱其：你在国外好象也很少参加展览。

　　蔡锦：不多，我这十年在纽约几乎没怎么画画。也因为生孩子、带孩子，画画对我来说是次要的事了，主要的精力和时间都是放在照顾孩子上面，这十年里面就是有几次个展我必须要参加才临时画了一些画，这十年觉得离开国内美术圈已经很久了。

　　朱其：就是说纽约影响了你的生活，对你的艺术没有什么影响？

　　蔡锦：我的生活整个在纽约改变了。

　　朱其：你觉得有哪些改变？在那里你过的是艺术家的生活，还是普通人的生活？

　　蔡锦：普通人的生活，甚至有些人都不知道我是画画的，主要是一种个人的生活在那里维持了十年。

　　朱其：生活的经历在画面上还是有一定的渗透的，前几年你在观音堂的世纪墙画廊做个展，有人说蔡锦的画比以前有张力，有一种内在的张力。我不知道这个你自己有没有感觉到？

　　蔡锦：我想一个人经历的越多，生活上的改变就会越大。可能再重新回到画里会有一些改变，我不知道，就像别人告诉我，蔡锦你经历了这么多不容易的事情，你在你的艺术上会更强，我就觉得一个人应该坚强，在艺术上我还是会更加充满信心。

　　朱其：你跟绘画的关系更多的是一种自我输出，把自我感觉和自我的情绪输出到画面上。不知道你平时有没有对想过，你一直没有说你自己对艺术到底有一个什么样的看法？感觉你平时好像不思考艺术，就是凭感觉画画。

　　蔡锦：从我本人的能力来说，如果特别理性的去思考一些东西的话不是很强。在画上面我觉得我自己有种感觉特别好，就是我不需要跟任何人，有任何的接触，不需要跟别人去谈什么或者做什么。我自己想画画的感觉是我特别需要的，所以在画面里很多都是随着感觉走。

　　朱其：后来怎么会把绘画扩展到一些现成品上？像鞋子、自行车的坐垫、浴缸之类，这个是从什么开始的？怎么会想要换一个媒介？

　　蔡锦：95年开始的，当时就觉得画在这些东西上也挺有意思的，我选的这些材料也是跟我感觉挺符合的，比如说我画浴缸是在98年的时候，当时在纽约参加一个当地艺术家的展览，策展人带我们去看在纽约的布鲁克林区有一条河流污染很严重，当时他就想通过这个活动反映一个社会问题，我们就到现场做这个展览。我在那片荒废的地方发现一个浴缸，就决定用这个浴缸了，就是本能的感觉让我选择了这个浴缸。每一种我要用的材料都是这种本能的感觉，包括我画丝绸的高跟鞋也是因为97年我在西雅图参加一个艺术家活动，当时活动里面安排我们做一些作品，就带我们去找材料，去了一家很大的二手店，进去之前我根本不知道我要找什么，进去以后一下子看到很多漂亮的鞋子，有很多不同颜色的丝绸高跟鞋都是一排一排的摆的，很整齐。当时我一看就特有感觉，就选择了这个高跟鞋，所以这个材料就是这么开始用的。

　　朱其：鞋子跟浴缸和坐垫还不太一样，鞋子上没有很明显的芭蕉形象，更像是沾了很多血的感觉。

　　蔡锦：鞋子不是一个平面可以把画都展现出来，这个鞋子不可能把整个形象画出来，就那么一点，就是一种符号上去了。当然我还是很认真的在画，能画出多少形象就画出多少形象，有的地方不需要的，我就根据鞋子的本身的感觉来做，但是像你说的感觉像血什么的，我自己没有这种意识，也没有这个专门的想法。像最早我画的床垫，98年在德国展览的时候床垫有好几个，我就把它们靠在墙面放在地上，但是总感觉好象少了什么东西，当时我就想到用蜡的材料在地面上做一些感觉性.连接性的东西，做完了以后我就给它染上油画的粉红色。做出来以后我一点也没有想到那是像血流淌出来，但是别人看了有这种感觉。

　　朱其：你的色调，大家可能更多想象的是血红色，画面本身的空间感，在展厅现场的物品，你后来往空间感发展多一些。

　　蔡锦：我觉得挺有意思的。

　　朱其：你为什么会对空间感兴趣呢？

　　蔡锦：我是试着利用空间，也许自己的思维或者很多感觉性的东西可以通过空间做出来，也是很有意思的。但是也是根据感觉性，或者根据现场的情况，我不会勉强自己。

　　朱其：你的选择跟生活有直接关系，跟社会或者政治符号不是特别有关系？

　　蔡锦：我觉得生活里面的东西是我们最熟悉的，也是我们比较容易接触到的，可能首先我注意到的是这些。

　　朱其：你好像对大的题材就从来没有感过兴趣？

　　蔡锦：可能从来就没有那种大的想法吧。

　　朱其：你早期的画有青春的格调多一点，身边画的那种色调的乌黑、血跟日常的生活的关系，这里面的情绪不能让你感觉非常美好或者高调，你的画90年代尤其是中后期的画给人的感觉色调不是那么高，也不是那么美好，感觉是特别无奈的，带有一些压抑性的。

　　蔡锦：我不知道，可能也许随着年龄。

　　朱其：这个是不是跟生活的自我感受有直接关系？

　　蔡锦：我也不清楚，因为一年年的这么过来，一年年的这么画不可能每一个时期都保持一致。但是我没有注意，如果有这个变化的话，我觉得每一个人都有，我自己比较明显的一种感觉，就是我总是特别想画我最早时候画的美人蕉，后来我画每张画的时候都想把它画的很鲜艳，但是总是做不到。

　　朱其：你的新画好像跟以前的距离更远了。

　　蔡锦：也许看上去可能吧。

　　朱其：现在的画面有一种衰败的主题，色调也特别灰色。

　　蔡锦：这个可能和以前的画放到一起这么看比较明显，但是我自己是无意识的，就像一个人的生命一样，就这么过来了，当你回过头来想你年轻的时候是什么样子似的。

　　朱其：你早期的红色有一种勃发的青春的感觉，很浓烈的情绪，但是后来红色就变成血色了。

　　蔡锦：你这么一说我感觉到了。

　　朱其：开始红色，后来是暗色，现在又是灰色，这正好是三个阶段。

　　蔡锦：我自己都没有放在一起这么看过。

　　朱其：所以有时候说人生如画。

　　蔡锦：可能是，要这么看挺悲伤的感觉。

　　朱其：你刚才说你现在画画很想最初的感觉，但是都没有画出来，是不想画还是画不出来？或是不由自主的就画了？

　　蔡锦：就是不由自主的一种感觉，但是自己老想画以前那种鲜艳的颜色。

　　朱其：是没有时间还是什么？

　　蔡锦：应该是没有到时候，我老是想应该找一个时间去画，老觉得是一个美好的事情，老是觉得要等到特别好的一天。

　　朱其：你原来是学什么画出身的？

　　蔡锦：油画。

　　朱其：你的画很表现自己的心性和感受，有点像学国画出身的。你最喜爱的画家是谁？

　　蔡锦：上大学的时候，那还是82年上大学，最喜欢的就是梵高，印象派的作品了。

　　朱其：国外待了十年，看了很多西方艺术，你对西方艺术的感受是什么？

　　蔡锦：比较麻木，我不好做评论，因为我平时看的东西很少，很多展览也很少去。我就记得在纽约有一年去古根海姆博物馆我看到一个马修?巴尼展览我很喜欢，他有些形象是做成野兽的那种，他有图片，还有一些现场的。我就觉得他满厉害的。在纽约的时候有时候会去看看画廊，我也非常喜欢草间弥生的作品。

　　朱其：你后来在纽约有没有感觉到，你作为一个在中国学习油画的，跟一个从小在美国或者欧洲学习油画的人，画出来的东西有什么不一样？

　　蔡锦：我觉得也没什么太大的区别，我看到的一些作品都比较随意，随意性比较大一点。我觉得好像没什么太大的差别，因为很多东西都是比较相通的。

　　朱其：你的画女性特征还是很明显的，如果说现在一些词汇像女性主义、女权主义、女性绘画你觉得这些词哪些跟你比较近一点？所有的人给你写评论也基本上都放在女性画的特征元素上。我不知道你是什么态度？

　　蔡锦：我觉得挺好的，没觉得有什么特别需要反对的，我觉得是这样。

　　朱其：这十几年里在日常生活的这种打点处理，包括很多问题的解决要耗很多的时间，这些会影响你的艺术吗？

　　蔡锦：会有所影响。

　　朱其：你觉得艺术跟生活是什么样的关系？它有没有实现你想要的那种艺术跟生活的关系？

　　蔡锦：我没办法说清楚。

　　朱其：做完这个系列之后，你后面有什么打算？

　　蔡锦：我就是想集中精力画画。

I Never Plan Before Painting----Interview with Cai Jin

September 12, 2007

Brewery International Art Garden

Zhu Qi: When did you begin to paint the images of Beauty Banana’ leaves?

Cai Jin: Around 1991.

Zhu Qi: Before you went abroad?

Cai Jin: Yes, before I went abroad.

Zhu Qi: I know that you wrote some diaries to describe your feelings at that time.

Cai Jin: That’s right.

Zhu Qi: Did you the paint in Beijing?

Cai Jin: At Tianjin Academy of Fine Arts.

Zhu Qi: At that time there seemed to be plenty of advance guard arts that many people were doing in Beijing. But painting actual objects wasn’t a popular trend then. Even today, it’s still not very popular. Why did you think of taking up this art then? You have stuck to it for so many years without any major chances, even during the years when you were abroad. So what was on your mind at that time?

Cai Jin: I had a feeling that there was an image, which drove me to paint. But after so many years of painting, I feel that it was a kind of need. Perhaps it is the same thing when I paint other things. There is an infinite feeling in it, which bears no other meaning actually. It is like that the feeling witch goads me to paint is always there.

Zhu Qi: There are various plants. Which characteristics of Beauty Banana’s leaves are attracted to you?

Cai Jin: Looking back, I was attracted by them on first sight. My first impression was that they looked like arteries and veins in skin. I didn’t continue to study and analyze it in details. It was a feeling in a flash. About one year later, I suddenly thought of the photos and began to paint.

Zhu Qi: The hues that you express in paintings are very subjective. Some of the colors are as red as blood, which is very strong and mysterious. What does it mean?

Cai Jin：Maybe, I used red in the color-mixing tray subconsciously. As for the bloody feeling you mentioned, it is a kind of visual feeling, a feeling for painting.

Zhu Qi: The hues you express are more directly connected with your life experiences or your moods. Viewers are able to associate your paintings with your personal experiences. Most people would like to see some beautiful paintings, but your paintings contain things like agony and confusion. Does this have any thing with your life?

Cai Jin: I was in my twenties and lived a simple life at that time. I think my life was relatively nice during my painting of Beauty Bananas the first ten years. No big things ever happened to me. Everything about me including my personal life was very plain and simple. I felt surprised when other people have that feeling when viewing my paintings. I was like a student during that time. All I did were painting and painting. I don’t know why what I have painted leave the viewer an impression that I have experienced a lot.

Zhu Qi：To other people, you are an artist who paints with instinct instead of some set thoughts. You used different hues at different times. For example, the colors were light in the beginning. But in late 1990s, the red color you used was so heavy that it looked like black. Was there any reason for the change?

Cai Jin: I think this was caused by some natural factors. Taking my paintings on shoes and mattresses for example, I never did anything to them before painting. The reason why they look black is that the silk cloth can easily suck much oil when no latex was painted on them.
Zhu Qi: Did you think of this in the beginning?
Cai Jin: No. When I found that the effects were good without latex, I kept painting in that way.
Zhu Qi: Will you choose to paint more in grey in future?
Cai Jin: I have been painting in dark grey recently because one friend said she liked a grey Beauty Banana I painted in the past. At first I only painted one. But the feeling for dark grey came back to me again, so I painted more.

Zhu Qi: Few leaves of Beauty Banana are seen in your new paintings. Instead, all the images are the plant’s stems. A feeling of being burnt is there.

Cai Jin: I was just following my feeling. I don’t want to use too many colors, nor do I want to put too many things on canvas. Perhaps, the feeling for painting in beautiful colors will return to me. I will paint in that way when I would like to. But recently I feel that it is also good to just paint few things or nothing at all.

Zhu Qi: When did you go abroad?

Cai Jin: In 1997.

Zhu Qi: You must have seen many arts in Europe and America in the last ten years. But it seems that they haven’t had much influenced on you. You haven’t change your art forms and subjects like many artists will do after they arrive in western countries.

Cai Jin: That’s right. Maybe I have a kind of inertia. I did like some of others’ paintings. But back into my painting, they seemed to have nothing to do with me.

Zhu Qi：You seldom joined in exhibitions when at abroad.

Cai Jin: Only a few. I almost painted nothing in the past ten years. Compared with pregnancy and looking after my child, painting became less important. I have spent most of my efforts and time on taking care of my child. I only did some painting for two solo exhibitions. I felt that I was far away from the art circle of China in the past ten years.

Zhu Qi: That is to say, New York has some impact on your life but not on your art?

Cai Jin: My life changed entirely in New York.

Zhu Qi: What changes do you think? Did you live a life of an artist or a life of a common person?
Cai Jin： I lived a common life. Some people even didn’t know that I was a painter. It was a personal life which lasted for ten years.

Zhu Qi: Life experiences can be reflected in paintings. Some people said that your paintings had more tension than before when you held a solo exhibition at Century Wall Gallery in Guan Yin Tang Art Street a few years ago. There was a kind of inner tension in the paintings. I don’t know whether you have the same feeling.

Cai Jin：I think the more people experience, the bigger changes will happen in their life. Maybe I will have some changes if I return to paintings again. I have no idea. Someone once told me that I would be stronger in art since I had gone through so many hardships. I just think one should be strong and I will be more confident in pursuing art.

Zhu Qi: Your relation with painting is more like a self-output. You output your own feelings and emotions and put them into the paintings. I wonder whether you have thought about this question. You have never talked about your perspectives on art. It seems that you don’t think about art and you only paint by feelings.

Cai Jin: Talking of my abilities, I am not very capable of pondering in a very rational way. I think I have a very good feeling for painting. I don’t need to get in any touch with anybody, nor do I need to talk with others or do anything withthem. In my opinion, the feeling for painting is what I specially need. Therefore, for most time I just follow my feelings when painting.

Zhu QI: Why and when did you begin to paint on existing objects like shoes, bicycle seats and bathtubs? How did you think of changing media?

Cai Jin: I came up this idea in 1995. At that time I felt it was very interesting to paint on these things. The materials I chose were in accordance with my feelings. We can take my first painting on bathtub in year 1998 for example. At that time, I took part in an exhibition of a local artist in New York City. During the exhibition, the curator, who wanted to reflect a social problem through this activity, took us to see a heavily polluted river in Brooklyn District in New York. When we held an exhibition in that deserted area, I found a bathtub and decided to use it for painting. It was an instinctive feeling that made me to choose it. Every other material including the high-heeled silk shoes has been chosen based on this feeling. In 1997, I took part in an artists’ activity in Seattle, during which we were brought to a large second-hand shop to find materials for some art works arranged for us to make. I even didn’t know what I was looking for before entering the shop. But as soon as I walked into it, I saw many beautiful shoes, including rows and rows of high-heeled silk shoes of different colors. At that moment, a special feeling came to me, and I chose them and began to use them as materials ever since.

Zhu Qi: Shoes are different from bathtubs and cushions. There are no obvious images of Beauty Bananas on shoes. The shoes looked more like being stained with blood.

Cai Jin: Shoes can’t show whole images like a plane, which can show the whole picture. They can only show a bit of the whole work just like a sign. Of course, I have been painting very carefully. I try to paint as many images as I could. At places where no images are needed I would paint according to the shoes’ own features. As for what you just said that it looked like blood, I haven’t created that intentionally, neither did ever think of it. When I exhibited my first paintings on several mattresses in 1998 in Germany, I put the mattresses on ground against the wall. When I felt something was missing, I put some wax on the ground and then colored them pink with oil. It never occurred to me that they looked like bleeding blood, though others have that feeling.
Zhu Qi: People are more likely to imagine that you hue is blood red. As for the sense of space or the existing objects in exhibition hall, you moved forward to the former in your later painting.

Caijin: I thought it was interesting.

Zhi Qi”: Why are you interested in space?

Cai Jin: I was trying to use space, because my own thinking or many things I have the feeling for could be presented through space, which is also very interesting. But I won’t force my self. I only paint according to my feeling or the situations on spot.

Zhu Qi: Your choices have direct connection with your life, but they are not quite connected with society or political signs, right?

Cai Jin: I think things in life are most familiar to us. We can easily get in touch with them, so I noticed them first.

Zhu Qi: You seemed to be never interested in big subject matters?

Cai Jin: Maybe. I have never had that kind of great thoughts.

Zhu Qi: More elements about youth are seen in your early paintings. Emotions in the dark colors, bloody feeling and their relations with everyday life stop you from feeling nice. The hue of your painting wasn’t so high in 1990s, especially during middle and late 1990s. It wasn’t so nice. There was a feeling of helplessness and depression.

Cai Jin: I have no idea. Maybe that changed with my age.

Zhu Qi: Is this directly related to your self-feelings in life?

Cai Jin: I have no idea. It is impossible to keep consistent as I painted year after year. But I didn’t notice that. If these kinds of changes happen to me, then I think every one will experience them. I have a clear feeling that I always wanted to draw the Beauty Bananas I painted in the beginning. I tried to paint every banana in extremely bright color, but I couldn’t do it always.
Zhu Qi: Your new paintings seem to vary from your previous style.

Cai Jin: Maybe. They look like so.

Zhu Qi: Your current paintings contain a theme of decaying and the color is quite grey.

Cai Jin: The differences may be obvious if you compare my current paintings with previous ones. But I was subconscious. It is kind when you get old, you look back to think about what life was like when you were young. But life just goes on.

Zhu Qi: In your early paintings, the red color sent out a feeling of energetic youth, expressing strong emotions. But later the red turned to the color of blood.

Cai Jin: Yes, I also feel that.

Zhu Qi: First red, then dark, and now grey. It happens to be three stages.

Cai Jin: I never viewed it like this.

Zhu Qi: So sometimes we say life is like a painting.

Cai Jin: Maybe. In this way I just feel a sense of sorrow.

Zhu Qi: Just now you said that when you paint now, you want to find the feeling which you had in the very beginning, but you failed. Is it because of that you do not want to paint like that, or you can not work it out, or you just paint subconsciously?

Cai Jin: Subconsciously. But I always think of painting in the fresh colors like before.

Zhu Qi: So you don’t have enough time or what?

Cai Jin: The right time has not come yet. I think painting is a beautiful thing. And I am waiting to paint on a special day.

Zhu Qi: What kind of painting did you learn at the very beginning?

Cai Jin: Oil painting.

Zhu Qi: Your paintings show your inner feelings like traditional Chinese painting, so it seems that you started from oil painting. Who is your favorite painter?

Cai Jin: When I was in college in 1982, I loved paintings by impressionists like Van Gogh best.
Zhu Qi: You stayed abroad for ten years and encountered many western arts. What’s your feeling towards western arts?

Cai Jin: Not much feeling. It’s hard for me to make a comment, because I did not see many works and did not go to exhibitions often. I just remember one year in New York I saw Mathew Barney’s exhibition in Guggenheim Museum. I liked it very much. Some of the images were like wild animals. There were photos as well as real ones. I think Mathew Barney is marvelous. When I was in New York, I went to gallery sometimes. I also like Yayoi Kusama’s works very much.

Zhu Qi: You learnt oil painting in China. So when you were in New York, what do you think were the differences between your painting and the painting of others who learnt oil painting in America or Europe from very young?

Cai Jin: I think there aren’t many differences. Many works I saw were quite casual. I don’t see much difference, because many things are connected.

Zhu Qi: Your painting has obvious feminine features. Which word do you think is closer to your painting, feminism, or female painting? People all comment on your painting with the focus on the features of female painting. What do you think of this?

Cai Jin: I think it’s ok. I don’t think there is anything to object to.

Zhu Qi: It took you much time to deal with daily trifles or even some problems these years. Did it affect your art pursuing?

Cai Jin: Yes, it had some influence.

Zhu Qi: What do you think is the relationship between art and life? Are you satisfied with the relationship between your life and your art?

Cai Jin: It’s hard to say.

Zhu Qi: What’s your next plan after you finish this series?

Cai Jin: I just want to concentrate my mind on painting.